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Setting a translation exercise for myself

Ted Alper's picture

[Not a lot of Esperanto here -- more a goal I want to set for myself, maybe starting the end of this month]

One of my favorite jewish texts is Pirkei Avot , aka "Ethics of the Fathers," a unique tractate of Mishnah that is concerned less with elucidating the rules of jewish practice and more with general moral principals. It is customary for observant Jews to review a chapter of the book each week between Passover and Shavuot, and many continue cycling through the book a chapter each week all summer until Rosh Hashanah. There are lots of famous phrases in it, including a few from Hillel, ostensibly a motivation of Hilelismo , most notably:


Li [ofte] diris: Se mi ne estas por mi, kiu do estos por mi? Kaj se mi estas nur por mi mem, kio do mi estas? Kaj se ne nun, kiam?
[Avot 1:14]

This isn't my own translation, though I added the beginning to match the original text. Already I encountered a problem as it isn't clear to me how to handle "Hu haja omejr" at the beginning. Maybe "He used to say" would be closer to accurate.

Anyhow, I actually have been somewhat surprised how few Jewish texts have been translated into Esperanto, considering how many Jews -- albeit largely unobservant Jews -- have been connected with Esperanto. There's no siddur (prayerbook), though I saw someone's home-made stab at a haggadah. Of course, there are some translations of the Jewish Bible, one originally by Zamenhof itself (though the version of that I've seen online has been somewhat modified by later editors, and, the pieces I've seen of it [mostly psalms and a bit of Kohelet/Ecclesiastes] are acceptable, but often a little odd. Maybe I'll make a post about that sometime. Still, this is just the small part of Jewish literature that is shared with other religions.

Personally, I have two main drawbacks in trying this: lack of time and lack of skill. As far as lack of time, I'm hoping that since Avot is fairly short [6 chapters, a total of about 130 verses, though a single verse can often correspond to several sentences.], I can try to do a few phrases from each chapter each week as we review it, and then, perhaps, have the whole thing done by the end of the summer. For lack of skill, I just have to do the best I can and hope to improve it in revisions. Translations of biblical and mishnaic hebrew are tough, even in English no single translation really captures everything and many [well-intentioned] translations can obscure things and invent details that aren't in the text.

UPDATE: I've put a few lines
here , I think 3-5 lines per weekend is probably about my limit.

by Ted Alper

Comments

Ĉu vi uzas aliajn tradukojn kiel bazon

Haruo Ros's picture

aŭ ĉu vi intence malrigardas ilin. Vi diris, ke la citita frazo de Hillel ne estas via traduko, kio indikas, ke vi almenaŭ konscias pri la ekzisto de jama(j) traduko(j) pri tiu ĉi teksto.

Al mi tre interesus legi freŝan Tanaĥon, eble pli beletre ol piisme tradukita (kiel ekzemple la angla Book of J de Rosenberg (kaj Bloom)).

Haruo

April 12, 2010 by Haruo Ros, 3 years 6 weeks ago

other translations

Ted Alper's picture

I'm not aware of any other translations of the entire tractate -- the one verse I cited is a very well-known phrase, and it's relatively easy to find people quoting it just by googling on hilelismo -- I'm pretty sure someone on this website has used a variant of it as their signature file. [Heck, there was even a translation of the last portion of the verse on the CD/tape "Bonvenu Paco" -- though in turning it into rhyming Esperanto, you might not recognize it, but in the original Hebrew song of Naomi Shemer, the quote is a deliberate word-for-word allusion.]

Also, as mentioned in one of my other replies, I've seen a book "Juda Sagxo" that has translations of a few scattered verses from the book. When I get a chance, I'll look at these in more detail, but I doubt I would use them.

I also own a number of English translations, from various sources, scads of commentaries spanning the centuries, and I have access to the Hebrew original (heck, it's online!), which I can read haltingly, with the aid of some scholarly aids.

One problem is that the hebrew is really quite terse in Pirkei avot and often lends itself to multiple interesting interpretations, all of which may be valuable. It's almost a mistake to translate it as a single expression, you'd like to capture the multiplicity of meanings.

Beletreco has its place, for sure -- but I really like translations that help me understand what the text plausibly means, or how it was most likely understood at the time it was written. [Have you seen Robert Alter's translations of Torah and psalms? They are an interesting balance between the scholarly and the literary. And there's a really interesting one of Song of Songs by Ariel and Chana Bloch [Shir haShirim is the one book of Tanakh that the religious tradition has the most trouble with, which spills into the English translations you can find from them -- for example, Artscroll's translation in the Stone Tanakh outright refuses to give literal translations and only gives an allegorical one. In synagogues, Shir haShirim is read on the Shabbat of Passover (so we just heard it recently) -- but there are some [by no means universal] traditions of reading it VERY quickly and softly because of its questionable propriety. [the only other text I know that gets read this way is the section of "curses" in Deuteronomy. ]

April 12, 2010 by Ted Alper, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Pirkej Avot

Haruo Ros's picture

I'm quite sure that when I was a fairly new Esperantist I got hold of a translation of Pirkej Avot (I'm pretty sure it was spelled with a "j", which I notice is how you spelled it in your blog but not here...) from the Book Service. I was going through a phase of thinking I should convert to Judaism, which fairly quickly gave way to just staying more or less drunk all the time... If I actually read more than a few pages of it, I don't recall.

Haruo

April 13, 2010 by Haruo Ros, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Really? I'd be very interested to see it!

Ted Alper's picture

I don't see such a book available -- or even referenced -- anywhere. As I recall, there wasn't anything like that listed in
Religia literaturo en Esperanto
, but I haven't seen that in some time. If you can recall or find any details, please let me know.

"Pirkei Avot" is a common (but by no means universal) transliteration into English -- "Pirkej Avot" is a more Esperantish transliteration. There are many other perfectly plausible transliterations depending on your choice of hebrew pronounciation variant.

April 13, 2010 by Ted Alper, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Sentencoj de la Patroj

Haruo Ros's picture

I just mentioned what I recall to have been the transliteration used because it could be a factor in successful electronic searching. The time period to which I am referring is early to mid seventies (I learned Esperanto in 1970 and probably would have been interested in such a book ca. 1972-74.

If Karlo Pov (Charles R L Powers) is accessible (he might have been the CO funkciulo I bought the thing from) he might recall something about it. Otherwise, I'd say ask the Israelis... I'll surely let you know if I find anything.

On the transl(iter)ation of the Baal Shem Tov I would be inclined to suggest MaBNo or perhaps ENBo. Can you guess why?

Haruo aka אפר בן חצי-אי

April 14, 2010 by Haruo Ros, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Sure, (A) literal translation + (B) acronym

Ted Alper's picture

"Mastro [Estro] de la Bona Nomo [Nomo Bona]" makes some sense as a translation of the name. And while he's often referred to by the acronym "Beŝt", combining both the translation and the acronym process seems a bit too much for me.

April 14, 2010 by Ted Alper, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Vi versxajne pravas

Haruo Ros's picture

Certe en la angla oni pli facile akceptas "the Besht" ol "the Magoon" aŭ io tia, ĉu ne? Tamen mi ŝatas tiajn hororaĵojn! ;-)

April 22, 2010 by Haruo Ros, 3 years 4 weeks ago

Translation project

Lee Miller's picture

This sounds like a great project to me. It should present you with some interesting translation and language challenges. Keep us posted about how it goes.

The text of the Malnova Testamento in the "London edition" was indeed edited by the "Biblia Komitato". I think it is essentially Zamenhof's translation with some minor changes (which to my knowledge have never been systematically documented). D.B. Gregor wrote a booklet "La Esperanta Traduko de la Malnova Testamento" (1958) but he didn't do a complete analysis, only presented examples. I'd be interested in knowing what you find "odd", when you have a chance to write about that.

In terms of Jewish literature, I'm not sure what exists in Esperanto translation. Esther Schor at Princeton might have a good handle on that. There is an "Antologio de la Hebrea Poezio" (J. Kohen-Cedek, 1986), now out of print. Also I have a book titled "Freŝa Mateno" by Reuven Kritz, published by "Libroj Pura" en Israel and translated by Ota Ginz--it's a story of a German boy's experience after moving to an Israeli kibbutz.

Lee

April 11, 2010 by Lee Miller, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Ginz

Michael's picture

I was interested to see your mention of Ota Ginz. Perhaps you are already aware that he was the father of Petr Ginz, a Czech Esperantist who was transported from Prague to Theresienstadt and who was subsequently murdered in Auschwitz. He had kept a journal during the German occupation of his country, and he was a talented artist. His diary was discovered in recent years, and published, with some of his artwork, in Spanish, Catalan, English and Esperanto editions. Israeli astronaut Ilan Ramon (whose mother survived Auschwitz) took a copy of Petr's drawing of the earth (as seen from the moon) on the ill-fated last voyage of the Space Shuttle Columbia, which disintegrated as it re-entered the earth's atmosphere on what would have been Petr's seventy-fifth birthday.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/press_room/press_releases/images/583...

Petr's diary, his art, and his life story would be worthy additions to the secondary school curriculum.

June 19, 2010 by Michael, 2 years 48 weeks ago

thanks for the references

Ted Alper's picture

I do have a copy of The "Antologio de la Hebrea Poezio" around here somewhere -- it has an interesting mixture of stuff [Including excerpts of Ecclesiastes done in rhyming couplets, which makes sense on some level, but definitely distorts the text]. And there actually has been some jewish cultural stuff translated into Esperanto -- ranging from translations of yiddish authors like Sholem Alechem and I.A. Peretz to some holocaust literature.

I also remember an ebook "Juda Sagxo" compiled by a swedish editor
on the old elibrejo site -- ooo, it's still available --
http://i-espero.info/files/elibroj/eo%20-%20feldbaum,%20sigvard%20-%20ju...
to be individual lines from many places, pulled out of context and I think it was translated from a book originally produced in Swedish and my recollection was (A) that the PDF was garbled in a few places, though the copy I just found and linked to seems better (B) that the text had been translated into Esperanto from a Swedish book, not from the original Hebrew and Aramaic -- and indeed, there's no guarantee the Swedish was done directly from Hebrew and Aramaic Even above the wording, there were some odd orthographic changes: for example, the "Baal Shem Tov" is called "Bal Hxem Tov", which is and, for that matter, the "Hxofec Hxaim" is called "Sxofec Sxaim". (C) the text itself was just a random sampling of well-known or interesting lines, all taken without context or commentary.
[Some of them are from Ethics of the Fathers, which in this book are called "Le prapatroj sentencoj" which is actually a fair translation.
But I haven't looked at it in years -- when I first saw it I was just learning Esperanto, so I didn't look at it as completely as I might now. I will give it another go.

You know, even the famous line from Hillel I quoted originally loses something when you include the "nur" -- which is NOT literally in the original, but is usually added in translations [at least both in English and Esperanto]. It may well be a useful clarification and perhaps captures the original meaning, but there are some interesting commentaries on the verse that don't make sense when the "nur" is there.

April 11, 2010 by Ted Alper, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Having gone to seminary, and

formiko's picture

Having gone to seminary, and being an ordained minister, I'm fairly proficient in Biblical Hebrew (yet I can't order a cup of coffee in Israel :)), and I think the Zamenhof translation is the closest to perfection, and may even surpass many English translations. I read the Bible daily, and I'm presently focusing on Ezekiel (Jeĥezkel), and I'm reading it in Esperanto and I'm so impressed with its rendition of the original Hebrew!
De Jeĥezkel ĉapitro unu:
jen malkvieta vento venis el la nordo kun granda nubo kaj flamanta fajro; brilo estis ĉirkaŭe de ĝi, kaj el interne, el la mezo de la fajro, iris tre hela lumo.
El la mezo vidiĝis bildo de kvar kreitaĵoj, kaj ilia aspekto estis kiel aspekto de homo.

April 12, 2010 by formiko, 3 years 6 weeks ago

interesting viewpoint

Ted Alper's picture

I do think Zamenhof's attempt is credible, and I'm not against it at all. (by the way, another one-person translation of Tanakh that's quite interesting is Yehoash's Yiddish translation. I have to stumble through line-by-line with notes to get anywhere, and I can't judge its literary quality, though I'm told it's quite high-rate, but it's definitely a labor of love.)

Also, I agree that Z. may surpass "many" English translations -- if only because so many of them are really dreadful!
[There's an interesting book recently out on this issue -- see
http://www.andgodsaid.com/ ]
But even in the lines you quote, I wonder about the fidelity to the original. It's way beyond my ability to decipher much of this, without notes or someone more learned to ask, I confess -- but "saarah" == malkvieta ? Maybe.
But I really wonder about the "iris tre hela lumo" part. The hebrew is much more obscure. "umitoĥah k'ejn haĥaŝmal mitoĥ ha-ejŝ". "Haĥaŝmal" is, maybe some sort of divine energy -- the Sages say it's some sort of angel that at times is silent ("ĥaŝ") and at times sings praises ("malul"). In modern hebrew, the word has been adopted to mean electricity -- but it was TAKEN from this passage. All that is gone in the Zamenhof.

I guess calling "ĥajot" to be "kreitaĵoj" is probably more defensible, -- the word does mean creatures in modern hebrew -- but traditionally, "ĥajot" have some sort of special status in the celestial hierarchy, too -- I don't know much about this sort of thing, but Ĥajot HaKodeŝ get mentioned in the Kedushah of Shemonei Esreh.

Oh, cool, the Gregor booklet mentioned by Lee above is available in the UEA catolog -- for 1.5 euro! http://katalogo.uea.org/katalogo.php?trovu=jes&aŭtoro=D.B.+Gregor

April 12, 2010 by Ted Alper, 3 years 6 weeks ago

Nord-Amerika Somera Kursaro (26 jun - 5 jul)

Landa Kongreso * Jul 5 - 8 * US Annual Congress

English follows ->
EO Esperanto: La Landa Kongreso okazos ĉe Universitato William Peace en Raleigh, Norda Karolino, Usono. 2013 julio 5 - 8.

EN English: The Annual US Esperanto Congress will be at William Peace University, in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA. 5 - 8 July, 2013.

Poll

Which NASK is best for you?:
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